Curse

upier · Jul 14, 2008, 06:05 PM // 18:05

8 man parties - 10 classes.
Sorry - but some of you are getting RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed.

FlamingMetroid · Jul 14, 2008, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

Ursan won't get nerfed, and neither will Sabway and other tank/nuke builds. That is why PvP and PvE skills now can be separated. Players like to use these builds, it gives them a feeling of invincibillity, and that's great! I mean, what would be left without builds like this? How would people differ from each other? by wearing fancy clothes? By walking around with pets? I could give my account to my 8 year old niece than as well, she would have a great time visiting towns and festivals

No! We want BLOOD on the rooftops!! Unstoppable builds, CRUSHING the environment, and those who like differently play it the other way. No problem. Freedom of choice here. Don't take that away.

The thing about Ursan is that it isn't a build, its a single skill. Sure, I love butthurting the crap out of PvE, but I at least have to change up some of my builds to do that. I also enjoy being challenged, which Ursan completely gets rid of in even elite areas. The OP isn't about nerfing Ursan, its about it being possible for everybody to play in any PvE area without class persecution. Playing an assassin, I faced alot of class persecution, especially before MS/DB builds became prominent. The problem really isn't with certain classes not being strong enough, but with people not realizing that they are.

Sniper22 · Jul 14, 2008, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

That's assuming you hit with the Concussion shot and interrupt with it.

It's safer just to pound the hell out of stuff and kill it. With a bunch of physicals, splinter weapon, and orders/barbs/MoP, you can kill anything.

Ya true, except for MoP that makes enemies spread. For the post above by upier, I'm not saying that all classes will be included in each group. Maybe you will have the typical 1 tank, 2/3 heal, 1 bip group, but the other 3/4 slots are open.

Richardt · Jul 14, 2008, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Let me address everything in your first post, and hopefully that'll give some clues as to the viability of some of the classes. Keep in mind these are pretty general.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

Warrior - Tank

Monk - Heal/Prot/Bond

Elementalist - Nuke

Necromancer - SS/BiP

Dervish - Tank

Tanking is bad! Remember-there's a difference between holding aggro and tanking. Tanking means you just stand there doing nothing. You might as well just get a second account and bot it out. Holding aggro means you hold back the enemy frontline while you pound the crap out of it.

Bonding isn't bad-but then you got one monk that's effectively not doing anything but hitting that little energy signet. This can be replaced by a nice hybrid-prot/healer.

SS is pretty good-especially if you can get them balled up. But BiP....I'm not found of BiP. Especially when [[blood ritual] works just as good-granted it's not as much energy regen, and it's touch range, but honestly if you're monks/eles/whatev. can't do their job with +7 energy regen...they need more e-management. And for the touch-well, as a necro you should be in the backline with them.

Quote:

Mesmer - Nuke? I was just looking at pvxwiki and I found this build. http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:Me/E_PvE_MoR_Dom . I know this build would require grinding up another rank, but signet of illusions could be a possibility for a different elite. Arcane echo could also be put in there to spam cry of pain more. Energy from a BiP necro would help this out.

Mesmers are more flexible than you think. Mass interupts, steady damage, caster/physical hate....the list goes on. Hell, an officer of mine once made a Me/D build using [[signet of illusion] and used a scythe-did as much damage-if not more-than his regular derv and had a good survivability.

Quote:

Ritualist - Possible healer or maybe a spirit rift/ancestors rage spam with destructive was glaive?

Go go [[splinter weapon]. Normally our rit brings one or two support spirits, with some nice damage dealing skills from the Channeling line. Totally devastates too. In addition, the various weapon spells can't be removed! Be sure to take advantage of that.

Quote:

Paragon - Imbagon? The problem with paragons is that they don't really focus their heals on one target like monks do, they don't do aoe damage, and their shouts and chants mainly effect attack skills which aren't really used in elite areas.

Attack skills not used in Elite areas? What team build are you using? Paragons feature such lovely things like unstripable buffs, ranged DPS equivalent to a sword/axe warrior, and oh yeah-almost limitless energy.

Quote:

Ranger - Traps for stygian veil and maybe splinter barrage could still work? It would also be nice to have a high lvl eoe and other spirits.

Meh on traps. Decent if you're doing a wall and pull tatic, but honestly there's better ways to utilize your ranger. Things such as [[broadhead arrow] and [[epidemic]. Use [[apply poison] or [[poison tip signet] before BHA and you spread both Daze and Poison on the enemy. Throw in a good [[volley] and you're got a nice AoE interupt going on.

Quote:

Assassin - Perma SF Tank? Heh maybe not. What about a quick condition spread though? Assassin jumps in, black spider strike, twisting fangs, epidemic and then all foes have bleeding, poison, and deep wound. Maybe it would be possible with temple strike to spread blind and dazed as well.

A nice condition spread wouldn't be bad, but I like our sins to do the MS/DB spam-chain up with a nice lead and offhand, then just spam [[death blossom] and [[moebius strike]. Include things like [[great dwarf weapon] or [[splinter weapon] and you have some nice DPS. And give your sin [[critical eye] and [[critical defenses] and you should be set.

Quote:

Maybe some skill buffs from anet would help too

.

Only if the monsters get the same buff.

There are plenty of build options amongst all 10 classes-you just need to know their strengths and weaknesses-and to look past the class on a superficial level.

Also knowing the area helps. For instance, in DoA you know that they use [[vocal minority] there. Thus if you want your Imbagon to be effective, you need to plan for him/her getting slapped with it and getting it removed quickly.

Tyla · Jul 14, 2008, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

Ursan won't get nerfed, and neither will Sabway and other tank/nuke builds. That is why PvP and PvE skills now can be separated. Players like to use these builds, it gives them a feeling of invincibillity, and that's great! I mean, what would be left without builds like this? How would people differ from each other? by wearing fancy clothes? By walking around with pets? I could give my account to my 8 year old niece than as well, she would have a great time visiting towns and festivals

No! We want BLOOD on the rooftops!! Unstoppable builds, CRUSHING the environment, and those who like differently play it the other way. No problem. Freedom of choice here. Don't take that away.

I said that Shadow Form wasn't going to get nerfed. I was wrong byy a longshot. Chances are that Anet got out of carebear season and started fixing their game best they can.

upier · Jul 14, 2008, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

For the post above by upier, I'm not saying that all classes will be included in each group. Maybe you will have the typical 1 tank, 2/3 heal, 1 bip group, but the other 3/4 slots are open.

And there will be options that will be either more fool-proof or just easier to get.
And those will be ran.

As long as you need to select who will be used (because of not having enough slots in the team) - someone will be dumped. And after a few days - everyone will run that.
We've seen that before - and it WILL happen again.
Hell, even I'll play that way!

Bowstring Badass · Jul 14, 2008, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I said that Shadow Form wasn't going to get nerfed. I was wrong byy a longshot. Chances are that Anet got out of carebear season and started fixing their game best they can.

I heard updates for skills that are barely used are coming. Maybe we will get 40 useful elites for PvP.

Tyla · Jul 14, 2008, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass

I heard updates for skills that are barely used are coming. Maybe we will get 40 useful elites for PvP.

Coolio. Boon Signet GOGOGOGOGO!!

kostolomac · Jul 14, 2008, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Some buffs to some professions are needed if A.net wants to include all professions into elite areas.
I don't know about other classes , but mesmer could be CoP nukers , however 2 or 3 would be needed.
However , the most fool-proof method is going to push other team builds outside and many professions will get pushed aside like they used to.

Pandora's box · Jul 14, 2008, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingMetroid

...The OP isn't about nerfing Ursan, its about it being possible for everybody to play in any PvE area without class persecution. Playing an assassin, I faced alot of class persecution, especially before MS/DB builds became prominent. The problem really isn't with certain classes not being strong enough, but with people not realizing that they are.

In that case the problem is not Ursan. Nor any other cooky cutter build. In that case the problem is that some players for whatever reason don't play with a group of friends, or guildmates, or even solo, but instead rely on joining teams of players they don't know. And THEN they face the fact that in such groups Ursan is very popular. It has nothing to do with the build and the solution is obvious: Join a good Guild (its Guild-Wars isn't it?), or play with known friends or go solo.

zwei2stein · Jul 14, 2008, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And there will be options that will be either more fool-proof or just easier to get.
And those will be ran.

As long as you need to select who will be used (because of not having enough slots in the team) - someone will be dumped. And after a few days - everyone will run that.
We've seen that before - and it WILL happen again.
Hell, even I'll play that way!

There ARE solutions to that, but they are drastical. Drastical in Ursan style:

a) allow secondaries to be used as primary / allow primary to be switched ("class" would be just skin, lets say, elementalist switched to warrior, you would craft armors that would look like eles but will have warrior stats and will take warrior runes/insignia, ofc, if you switch primary, that armor would be unusable as it is in essence warrior armor.)

That way assassin char could fill in as hboon or whatever tankways would run.

b) Create pve only elite "blessings" that would convert character to one other class: "Necromancer Blessing" would turn character essentially to curses ss necromancer with prebuilt skillbar. Same thing with other blessings, ideally, blessing for each attribute with popular build. Think eotn henchman quality builds

Same as A, but more easier for players to comprehend.

Alex the Great · Jul 14, 2008, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akolo

agree tyla, "grab n go", which pugs dont use, is actually much more effective then the trinity, if its thought through

nope, thats a straight lie.

random teams of the best builds of each class is not even close to able to beat the holy trinity. Tank, nuke, heal only works the best because of AI failures.

fix the AI, then other classes will be more viable.

Eragon Selene · Jul 14, 2008, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Bolded part made me LOL. All professions have the SAME amount of HP. Only thing that changes HP are runes, weapons, and skills (like Ursan).

1,200 HP on a non Warrior Prof...........cant be done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Another good LOL for me, "Don't swing your melee so you don't get energy and so you lose your ursan!"

Proves your a tool.......I never have energy issues with my W/Me and I dont swing my Melee. High energy set combind with energy gained from taking agro keeps my energy nice and high.

Tyla · Jul 14, 2008, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex the Great

nope, thats a straight lie.

random teams of the best builds of each class is not even close to able to beat the holy trinity. Tank, nuke, heal only works the best because of AI failures.

fix the AI, then other classes will be more viable.

What's a straight lie? I don't get it.

Tank/Nuke/Heal will probably be superior, but when I point to "Grab 'N' Go" I usually mean creating a variation for the most effective possible synergy between the team.

Fixing the AI won't make other classes viable. That would only make PvE better.

Fixing the AI, giving monsters decent skill bars, and not buffing them into insanity would enhance the PvE experience by a long shot.

In terms of damage at range; nothing can defeat the offensive power of Cry of Pain spam, which can be ran by any profession.

JDRyder · Jul 14, 2008, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

8 man parties - 10 classes.
Sorry - but some of you are getting RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed.

theres also more then 1 way to do things.

I hope usran gets nerfed to the point its not usable and then pve plays will have a reason to learn the game.

Ive been messing around in ToPK for fun with non-ursans with a friend and hero with fun team builds "that work rly well" like

[build=OQASE5JPiFwySJwKA4rG2rC]

[build=OQASE5JPiFwySJwKA4rG2rC]

[build=OghDgoysS+Z6C9CLgXMcD4CIDA]

[build=OghDo8isO+ZdRv4acxWH4CkB]

[build=OQNDAowjOFgcQPgIgGdBaAPA]

[build=OAhjYgHsoO1sPRZwOcxchYsqKA]

[build=OwYT0yHDzhiMTEIaRkRYslEQAA] or SoD for RC and dismiss for guardian

[build=OwYT04XCTSjoBUgoeAZYiolIgAA]

its not hard to changed a war for a derv, sin, par or rangers, the necro for rit or even the eles for more wars or rits etc. We are able to use any class in the game but its just a matter of being creative

O and Prots > tanks

Stockholm · Jul 14, 2008, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Should this question not have been asked here?
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10289766

Pour One For Jose · Jul 14, 2008, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eragon Selene

1,200 HP on a non Warrior Prof...........cant be done.

[skill]Symbiosis[/skill]
12345678912

Snow Bunny · Jul 14, 2008, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pour One For Jose

[skill]Symbiosis[/skill]

I had the same thought.

This shouldn't be an ursan-profession efficiency discussion. The OP was wondering about viable (meaning the most efficient) builds/skills for professions, outside of ursan.

I've listed some, is there anything else that hasn't been covered? This Ursan discussion is like listening to people argue over pcs vs. macs.

upier · Jul 14, 2008, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

There ARE solutions to that, but they are drastical. Drastical in Ursan style:

a) allow secondaries to be used as primary / allow primary to be switched ("class" would be just skin, lets say, elementalist switched to warrior, you would craft armors that would look like eles but will have warrior stats and will take warrior runes/insignia, ofc, if you switch primary, that armor would be unusable as it is in essence warrior armor.)

That way assassin char could fill in as hboon or whatever tankways would run.

b) Create pve only elite "blessings" that would convert character to one other class: "Necromancer Blessing" would turn character essentially to curses ss necromancer with prebuilt skillbar. Same thing with other blessings, ideally, blessing for each attribute with popular build. Think eotn henchman quality builds

Same as A, but more easier for players to comprehend.

When you have a pre-built bar - you'll exclude certain guys again. A Sabway curser runs best with physicals. And that's what would be run.

The first idea would be interesting.
But then again - do you really want to have a guy monk on his assassin in DoA if he doesn't have a monk there?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

theres also more then 1 way to do things.

Not when you're farming elite areas with PuGs.
Whereas guild-groups or people of your FL ALREADY have the option to go non-Ursan.
Ursan is a group farming build.
It won't be replaced with diversity. It will be replaced with the next farming build.

JDRyder · Jul 14, 2008, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Not when you're farming elite areas with PuGs.
Whereas guild-groups or people of your FL ALREADY have the option to go non-Ursan.
Ursan is a group farming build.
It won't be replaced with diversity. It will be replaced with the next farming build.

still missing the point. if ursan gets nerfed people will be forced to L2P if they want to farm and theres still more than 1 way to do it, its just a lack people being creative if only 1 build is used